WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Everyone for those of you who were just now joining in we are gonna get started with this author talk, for the copyright wars about a minute, past, the top of the hour so please just hang Tight. 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000 What does a Hollywood copyright fight from the twentieth century, having common with Royal publishing privileges and the French Revolution, more than you might imagine, Hi everyone I'm Chris Freelan and I'm a Librarian, at the Internet Archive in the copyright Wars Historian. 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Peter Baldwin takes us on a transitlantic journey across 300 years of copyright Fights, and Skirmishes, no Surprise to fully understand the fights happening today you have to look back at the Legal and moral Precedence set Centuries, before leaving the Conversation with Peter today, will be 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Pamela, Samuelson, the Richard, M Sherman, Distinguished Professor of Law and Information at Uc. 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Berkeley Panel is a decorated scholar, who has published extensively in the areas of Copyright Software Protection and Cyber, Law today's conversation is Co-sponsored by Authors, Alliance, and you'll be Hearing from Executive, Director Dave Hansen in Just a few 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.000 Minutes. So Here's something fun. the copyright Wars, was published 8 years ago. 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:12.000 Peter has designated that it'd be freely downloadable with a creative commons license at the Internet Archive which Duncan is sharing out We'll Be Sharing Out in Chat now you can also Purchase the book in print from the Publisher, Princeton 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:30.000 University Press, or of Course your Local bookstore so I'd like to run through some some basic logistics for today we have automated captions available for our discussion, you can turn those on using the live transcript feature of Zoom all registrants will receive an email tomorrow 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:32.000 With today's recording? Yes, we are recording today's session. 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:47.000 We will be uploading that to archive, org preserving it there and making it available for everyone to view, starting tomorrow, and of course, also the links that We're Sharing out, and the Chat, so for those of you who are Wanting to write down all the Resources. 00:00:47.000 --> 00:01:02.000 Don't work everything that you see you're presented in Chat, will be part of the the Recording Package, so you can have those links afterwards. Now you can see that we Do have the Chat, open, please do be respectful in your Communications, today, keep the keep your comments. 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:10.000 on Topic, and do use the the Chat to submit questions for our panelists, which will take towards the end of our Conversation. 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:25.000 But for now please keep doing what you're doing and use the Chat to say, Hello, and let us know who you are, and where you're tuning in from today, I'll mentioned, those of you I see that there are number number of People who are Frequent Attendees at our 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:27.000 book talks. You might notice that I'm in a different spot. 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:30.000 I'm actually in Michelle Rocket, Indiana right now at our Literacy, partners, better world books. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:51.000 I I came here to celebrate a holiday party for the workers, who help the Internet archive, in making books available through our Controlled digital Lending environment so glad to be here today, and glad to be here, part of this conversation so as we get started I would I would like 00:01:51.000 --> 00:02:21.000 To Welcome Brewster, Kale the Inner, Archives, Founder, and digital Librarian, to the screen for a little context, Setting Brewster are you there 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:12.000 Thank you very much. Chris, and thank you very much for everybody, for for coming, today. 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:20.000 I think of these Book talks, as my fantasy dinner party. Right? 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:36.000 Where you get to go, and have your favorite people have a conversation with you and around you, that you've always wanted to happen so I read Peter Baldwin's book and it blew my mind it, was I, mean i've read a lot about Copyright stuff but it's always been 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:43.000 Sort of the same same same. But this is really a different perspective of how did we get into this mess, and that? 00:03:43.000 --> 00:04:00.000 Where where are the conflicts over time? That made it so that we're kind of having these these issues, now that we're, that we're having so I'm very glad you're here, I actually like physical books, myself, highly recommend it but it's, great to be able 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:05.000 To search it online. So thank you, Peter, for for making this available. 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:09.000 So for for coming today. Chris 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:13.000 Thanks, Brewster, yeah, I'm the same way. you know, I love digital books. 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:31.000 I love, the the Ease and the Utility of digital books, and I love to read, and print when whenever possible, so I also have a Physical copy of the Copyright Wars in addition to Being, able to Search and search through the text, Thanks to Peter making the Book Available at the Internet Archive so It's, now 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:45.000 My Pleasure to Welcome Dave Hansen, to the screen. 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:51.000 Thanks Chris, so and thank you all for joining this is a really great turnout. 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:56.000 This is, our third, author talk, that we've done this fall with Internet Archive and I think we're hitting pretty close to record participation. 00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:15.000 So so we're really excited to be able to do this series with Internet archive, authors, alliance is a nonprofit organization formed in 2,014, with the mission of advancing the Interest of authors who want to serve the public good by sharing their Creations. 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:19.000 Broadly, our vision and voice are really unique among organizations. 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:25.000 Participating in debates around copyright and free expression, fair use and other public policy issues. 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:43.000 I I joined authors, alliance as executive, director this past summer for that I formerly served as lead for copyright and information policy at Duke, University and I was Responsible, for their Library Collections, and research, services, and a big Reason why I joined is because Authors Lines 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:53.000 Really, is the only nonprofit membership based organization that really represents the public interest-minded authors, perspective on issues relating to information policy. 00:05:53.000 --> 00:06:13.000 And I think Many of you on the call know that there there's a really alternative narrative out there, and we provide an alternative, to that to the to the protectionist, positions of entertainment and big media Lobbyists, and as We're gonna Hear about in a bit You know 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:33.000 There is this ongoing war, as described in the book and ongoing and Debate with with very different perspectives on what the law should look like, and how it should benefit Authors, and Creators and Publishers, and the public so so if Authors, Alliance and our 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:39.000 Mission sounds like a description of your interest. We would really love to have you join us membership is free. 00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:40.000 It's a great way to help us. Represent your interests, and amplify your voice. 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:45.000 So you can click the link, there or type in that link and love to hear from you. 00:06:45.000 --> 00:07:07.000 So now, it is my pleasure to introduce Peter Baldwin and Pamela, Samuelson, so First Pam Pamela Samuelson, is the Richard M Sherman, Distinguished Professor of Law and Information, at the University of California Berkeley, She's a 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:24.000 Pioneer, in digital copyright, law, intellectual, property, cyber Law, and information policy since 1,900, and 96 she's held a joint appointment at the Berkeley, law School and Uc Berkeley, School, of Information and he is the director, a director of the Internationally, Renowned 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:46.000 Berkeley, center for law and technology, and among my favorite of her many many achievements, is that she, is the co-founder and Chair, of the Board of Authors Alliance, and Pam, will be in Conversation, today with Peter Baldwin here Baldwin Is in a Historian, and Professor at 00:07:46.000 --> 00:08:04.000 Ucla his interests are in the historical development of the modern State He's published many works on a comparative history of the Welfare, State on social policy more broadly, on public health and on the history, of Copyright He's the Author of the Copyright Wars 3 7 Centuries of 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:21.000 Transatlantic Battle, the Book We're here to talk about today, his other recent works, include command and Persuade, Crime, Law, and State, across history, by mit Press, and A Forcecoming Book, that I'm really Excited about Titled Athena, Unbelievably and How Academic Knowledge Should 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:34.000 Be free, for all forthcoming, from the mit press and I'm also very proud, to say, Peter, is a member of the Author's Alliance Advisory, Board, and with that I will hand it. 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:35.000 Over to Peter. to give a a brief overview in Intro and take it away. 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:42.000 So thank you 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:43.000 Thank thank you very much. it it it's you know, almost 10 years. 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:59.000 This book came out. A lot has happened to the meantime, and and I'm very glad to be asked to do this, and amazed at the Interest and grateful to Pam for being willing to take on this Conversation. 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:03.000 Of course, Tom. I've been reading your stuff for a long time. 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:04.000 Now, so you're a real player in this field and I'm an outside observer. 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:07.000 But what I can bring is possibly a kind of historical perspective. 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:28.000 To it. If you look back at the history of copyright copyright is to today largely the same system everywhere in the world, lengths differ slightly among jurisdictions. You know, fair use is a bit less generous in some places and others, the first Sale doctrine 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:29.000 Doesn't always allow the lending of the same content. 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:38.000 And all places. But this is fairly Minor Kinds of Differences, among the various systems that exist in the world. 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:55.000 But this uniformity, that we see now was not always true historically, when copyright first began in the early eighteenth century in England, and then spread from there copyright, was approached very differently in different jurisdictions the fundamental point of intellectual property and copyright is to 00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:56.000 Accomplish to effectively contradictory Goals. 00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:06.000 First, of all it is to offer creators some guarantee of profiting from their efforts, and to that end. 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:13.000 Creators are offered, a temporary monopoly, during which they can exploit their work. 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:33.000 But the return on that promise, the return for society is that once the period of temporary monopoly is over of Course, the Work, then Joins, the public Domain, and is available for anyone to use now that means the copyright is Effectively, to face and it can go in opposing directions it can either be Focused on the 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:49.000 Creators, and their Rewards, or the one hand, or it can be focused on the public domain, and what the audience, expects in the way of having content delivered to it, and to it depending on how you formulate copyright it can emphasize one aspect of the other now throughout the eighteenth century. 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:54.000 when copyright first began, these 2 sets of interests were largely held in balance. 00:10:54.000 --> 00:11:12.000 Terms were short, at first they were just 14 years and only a few kinds of works were protected mainly writings, but having won this speechhead creators and their disseminators, strove for more if novels and essays and plays, were protected you know why not engraving the 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:17.000 Music. And if these works were protected from 14 years, why not longer? 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:37.000 And if they were protected against being reprinted wine, it against other uses, like transition or bridgement, or editing, or otherwise being used for derivative works, all these other uses, were eventually protected, as well, which meant that any such use required permission and payment, to the author so 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:54.000 Protection lengthened in duration, to the point. We've arrived at now, where it is basically a life, of the Author Plus 70 and Protection, broadened in scope to the extent, that every conceivable creative act is protected the instant it occurs without having to undertake any 00:11:54.000 --> 00:12:02.000 Formalities, if I registration without something. So it's a huge expansion of rights for the authors in 2 directions. 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:19.000 Now in this process of expanding different nations took different approaches, depending on whose claims they took most seriously, whether they were most interested in the author's Claims are most interested in the audience's claims and on the whole looking back historically it's fair to say and this is what 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:35.000 The Bulk of the Book Deals with that continental Europe favored the interests of Creators and gave them ever longer and broader, powers, and this is what I in the book called the Author's Rights Tradition the Author's Rights Tradition, Regards, Creators, as having a Natural 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:53.000 Law, Property Right in works which in theory should mean that they own them in in perpetuity, but it's not perpetually, at least they own them for a very long time, and in contrast, to this we then have the copyright, tradition more narrowly defined specific use of the term 00:12:53.000 --> 00:13:08.000 Copyright here which in the eighteenth and the nineteenth Centuries was adopted basically in the Anklesaxon Nations in the Uk, as Well, but above all it, in the Us, and this Copyright Tradition, Emphasized the Interests of the Public and Cheap easily Available 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:26.000 Enlightenment. It argued that authors had no more rights in their works than anyone has natural rights in times Tangible Property and It's only by Virtue of the State Policing Property rights that they could be enforced at all and in return to the State enforcing limited rights to exploit 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:47.000 Their property. Authors, therefore had to surrender, and eventually to the public, to let me give you just 2 very brief examples, historical examples of How the Contrast between these traditions worked itself out in practice over the nineteenth and twentieth century during the nineteenth century the us refused to 00:13:47.000 --> 00:14:03.000 Grab foreign authors, copyright protection at all that allowed us publishers to print bootleg editions of European writers at cheap prices, the Us in the century had the largest literate reading public in the World and this these publishers, wanted to exploit 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:07.000 So American editions were massive and they were cheap. 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:26.000 Entire. Novels were published in periodicals, charles, Dickens was serialized, on the Back of Railway, Trying, Timetables and Effectively, Education and Enlightenment was Split as Cheaply and as widely As Possible thanks to the European Authors having no Copyright it was only toward the End 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:43.000 of the nineteenth century, that the us finally conceded foreign author's protection, and that happened when some us authors, people like Harriet, Beecher, Stowe and mark Twain and Whitman on some of these American authors, became popular in Europe and American Publishers discovered what it meant to 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:51.000 be the victims of pirated additions. In other words, the change happened, the change to giving European Office Copyright Protection in the Us. 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:59.000 The change. Happened, when the Us. Became a cultural exporter, and when it's publishers shifted interest, the Us. 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:04.000 Then took the First time steps to work the European View of Author's Rights. 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:13.000 That has since come to dominate intellectual property. That's the first example second example, and this is sort of from the other side of the spectrum. 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:35.000 How to do with moral rights, moral rights were emblematic of the European approach authors were given almost total control over their works, they could prevent them from appearing except precisely as they wanted, and they could prevent works and and any Uses, of a of their works in the most extreme case, authors, were 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:37.000 Given a Withdrawal right, that is to say, they could withdraw works from the market and forbid, their use even after they had been published in practice. 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:47.000 This didn't work out very very realistically, but in theory, it was a right that they were granted. 00:15:47.000 --> 00:16:05.000 So just as one among many examples, in 1,954, the French Band, Carmen, Jones, which was the film by Otto Preminger of of Bez's Opera, Carmen, and the reason, they did so was that these Days Heirs, found that Carmen, Jones, which was set among 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:11.000 Black Americans. They found this to be a setting that was unworthy of the now dead Master. 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:27.000 Now these sorts of contrast between on the One, have the author's rights, Tradition, and the copyright tradition, Peaked during the Middle Decades of the Twentieth Century and since that Time, the 2 Sides, the Angles, Accidents, in the European Constitutional Nations Have Begun to Approximate 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:34.000 Each other, largely in tune with how the Anglo-saxons have adopted the Author's rights. 00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:51.000 Approach this change was driven above, all because the us, content, content industries eventually became the world's biggest cultural exporters during the Latter half of the twentieth century, and they therefore developed an interest in strong protection for their property much as the Europeans. 00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:10.000 Had had earlier, in in in this period, that We're, looking at the Google books Project demonstrates that this transitlantic divergence still exists even though it has been modeled and Google presented its Plans in 2,004 the European reaction to it was hostile authors rights were being violated 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:30.000 This was the European position, the Angular phone cultural Mock was seen as once again trying to dominate the world, and we can also see a sort of resonance of this Dispute in the Discussions over the safe harbors provisions of how content that is posted on the web is Treated safe 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:48.000 Harbors, give content, disseminators, some protection against the claims of infringement for the works of the post, and the EU is now in the Process of Clamping Down on these kinds of Liability Exceptions, While in the us the Debate, About this is only a just be Begun, and that 00:17:48.000 --> 00:18:08.000 Brings us to the question of open access, because if you look at the historical trajectory you might expect there to be a broader divergence on open access between Europe and America then in fact, there seems to be in theoretical terms it's true that the debate over 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:22.000 Open access was started, earlier and in many ways conducted, much more fervently in the us, but in practical terms, the Europeans seem to have beaten the Us in the race the Us. 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:40.000 The EU has. Now by now past, an orphan works law, that allows orphan works to be digitized for example, even though at the same time, it demand payments for authors and of course, plan s which mandates Gold open access for academic research is a European initiative that has 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:47.000 Gotten Fairly Widespread support in Europe There' not uniformly and Only, and and to some extent in in this country. 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:48.000 So an interesting question. and I won't try to answer it. 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.000 Now I'd leave that for the discussion instead is given this historical trajectory with the 2 divergent approaches to copyright. 00:18:52.000 --> 00:19:17.000 Why is it that with open access in fact? the golf seems to have narrowed somewhat and the 2 sides have reached some kind of rough, so let me stop there, for fear of Monopolizing what time we have 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:42.000 Well, I want to start by saying thank you, Peter for writing that book I think while I have been familiar with a good part of the History of the copyright, wars in a there were so many details about those the ways in which copyright has been from my standpoint Misused that I Didn't know 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:43.000 About so you've given me a lot of examples to work with. 00:19:43.000 --> 00:20:01.000 And so thank you for, that but also, I I think, as Brewster suggested so many of us, think that the copyright wars of the modern era are completely, new and I think you have done such a good. 00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:08.000 Job, and helping us. Kind of understand that hey, this has been going on for hundreds of years, and you know it waxes and wanes back and forth. 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:33.000 And we are in today, a little bit of a lull, but as somebody who is a very active participant, in the copyright wars in the 1,900 and Ninetys, I can tell you that for those of you who are just in junior high school at that point that was actually really really hard 00:20:33.000 --> 00:21:01.000 Fought and the Clinton administration in 1,994, 1,995 would have had copyright, essentially so broad that the Internet would practically have to be shut down so every temporary, and every permanent copy of works would be within the exclusive rights of the of 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:23.000 The Rights Holder isps would be strictly liable for every infringing copy of every infringing work that might be on their system, and there would be no need for fair use because because everything could be licensed and that was kind of the the picture that not only the clinton 00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:52.000 Administration, supported but also there was a draft international Treaty, the Wipo Copied Treaty in 1996, the Draft Treaty would have made all of those exclusive Rights, Expansions, into an International Norm now this is actually a good Example that Fighting Back against the High 00:21:52.000 --> 00:22:04.000 Protectionist can sometimes be successful, and so the Wipo Copyright Treaty that finally got adopted in 1,996 was actually a pretty good one. 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:08.000 So they dropped the temporary copy as a norm. 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:11.000 They dropped the ISP, strict liability, rule, and the wipe of Copyright Treaty. 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:23.000 Not only said, you can continue to use. The exceptions that are in your national copyright law. 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:41.000 Now but also new exceptions can be, can be added. So this was actually a place, where some of the Us representatives to the Wipo Treaty some of the Nordic Nations some Africa and some from Asia. 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:47.000 Kind of got together, and said, Hey, this, Aha High Protectionist international treaty, draft. 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.000 I don't want any part of it. And so this was actually a place where there was something of a victory. 00:22:49.000 --> 00:23:02.000 Now I do you know I when when it comes to the the digital Millennium copyright, act we didn't win everything. 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:10.000 But but the ISP safe harbors has been enormously important to the growth of the Internet Economy. 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:38.000 And allowing the the hosting of content on sites everything from Youtube to Wordpress, and We're very happy that the that the Dmca Safe harbors has not Only Protected the Interests, of the Platforms, that that provide this Space but also has enabled Users to be Able 00:23:38.000 --> 00:24:01.000 To make fair uses. and you know the Platforms don't have to take anything down until and unless the copyright Owner identifies what works have been informed and then the the the Platforms have a Responsibility to investigate and take it down if the Claim is is solid but it 00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:02.000 Does seem to me that the Dmca wasn't barbecue. 00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:32.000 I hate the anti circumvention rules, but But even they have been modified considerably because Congress put in a provision that allows the copyright Office essentially to grant new exemptions to the antisir Convention laws and so for enabling print disabled access to works up and most recently Authors. 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:40.000 Alliance helped to get an acception for a text and data mining. 00:24:40.000 --> 00:25:00.000 So we can basically digital humanity. Scholars can. Now, do Texan data mining on DVD movies, and on ebooks, as even though they're, Technically, protected so so there there are some good things that have resulted from these Wars but unfortunately the Wars are not over 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:17.000 Pamela I wonder if what you what your description of the Dmca and the Millennium copyright Act in the Battles over that Highlight something that from a sort of a Longer Historical Perspective is one of the Key Aspects, to Copyright and you know the 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:32.000 Hopes, for channeling, reform in the right direction, and that is that there really aren't very many unified actors in this game or rather there are a lot of actors with different with different interests, so even authors don't have it a a a single voice because you have what am I calling 00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:50.000 you know primary authors, who create something up over all by themselves, and who think that they own it, and and they deserve rights for it, but then of course you have derivative authors, who nebraska film directors, playwright, september, you know who use other authors, works, and want to have 00:25:50.000 --> 00:26:05.000 free access, and want to have be able to make make use of them in much the same way that the audience does so already there you know a derivative authors are sort of a halfway step between the primary authors, and and the audience and nowadays with both modern reception, theory and stuff within 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:15.000 A the audience becomes a creator in its own right, and and also has an interest in using the work, so so even the authors category isn't isn't isn't unified. 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.000 And Nor, of Course, is out of the disseminators. 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:32.000 Because you have the disseminators who public to stick with books the primary authors, and they share more or less the same interests, as the primary, others but then you have the reprint publishers in the nineteenth century, who are Desperate just to you know put out as much stuff as they 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:39.000 Possibly plan as as cheaper prices you can and during the battles over the digital Millennium Copyright Act. 00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:57.000 That split was effectively reenacted in the split between on the one hand, Hollywood and the Content, Owners and Producers, and on the other, hand, the Internet Interests and Silicon Valley, the ones who Disseminated the Information and Didn't Want, it Locked Down, Effectively, Reflected, the 00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:14.000 Same split that you had in the nineteenth century, between the Primary publishers and the and the reprint publishers, and so this civil War, that you Effectively had between Northern California and Southern California was what you know Allowed the the the Clinton what Prevented the Clip 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:19.000 administration. You remember how how Buddy Buddy Clinton was with Hollywood 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:34.000 It prevented the Clinton administration from Steam rolling that through without so getting precisely things, like safe harbors, which is effectively, the mechanism, by which the content owners and the content disseminators, have been reconciled to each other. 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:48.000 Hi, very much agree with you, that the interest of Author's are not uniform, nor are the Interests of disseminators, but there are as you say some loud voices there one of the Reasons. 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:49.000 Why I was motivated to to co-found authors. 00:27:49.000 --> 00:28:19.000 Alliance was because it really made me angry when the authors guild which is made up of mostly people who want to commercialize their works, and I think that organization has every right to exist but they Would basically say, hey we represent the interest of all authors, and so when they brought these 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:46.000 Lawsuits of first against Google, for the Google books, scanning program, and then against Hottie, trust the the digital Library of Library Copies that that libraries got back from Google Copies of the works, that Google had Copied, from their Collections, they were basically saying oh, we Represent the Interest of all authors and I said 00:28:46.000 --> 00:29:08.000 No, you don't, and so I filed a couple of briefs, actually with the second Circuit Court of Appeals one claiming that you Shouldn't actually grant the class Action, Status that that Authors, Guild was Seeking, and Second that Authors, Alliance, has Members who want 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:31.000 Their works to be found and Google books allows people to find our works and therefore that should be part of the reason why this is fair use and I'm pleased to say that although that was another very very very hotly thought, debate, that we were able to persuade the second Circuit to Vacate the 00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:57.000 Class, Action, status, and also we we helped persuade them that it was fair use for Google to scan this for text, it and data mining purposes and to enable search through the snippets, that they serve up to to people who are searching for something about buffalo, new York or 00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:12.000 Something else. So it's been exciting to see that you know if you if you guys take some actions, sometimes it really can make a make a big difference in the world, and you know, I think that peter's. 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:26.000 Book gives us a reason to think that you know this is an ongoing struggle, but you know we're in a pretty good space at the moment, not a great one but a pretty good. 00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:31.000 One and Peter I. Very much agree with you about the divergence between Europe and and the Us. 00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:42.000 And I agree with you also, that there's been some significant conversions, and the Us. 00:30:42.000 --> 00:31:08.000 Has moved more toward the European approach. But fair use is actually an example of of a concept that Europeans to swallow at least some of the Academics I know would like Fair use to happen but so far not really happening and the Europeans, are clamping down now through new Directives. 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:17.000 And new regulations, to you know, there was about a 20 year period, in which the Us. 00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:38.000 And the EU. Both adopted the Safe Harbor approach, and now they're basically the Europeans are saying well, that just allowed too much infringement to happen, so we're not Going to let that happen, anymore, so the the you know, the the divergence has has gotten more significant and it's going 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:47.000 To be interesting to see whether that leads to more legislative activity in the Us. 00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:52.000 So far, not. But it's a. You know. Maybe it's in the early stages of transition. 00:31:52.000 --> 00:32:13.000 Well, this is one of those issues, where one once one is in favor of some political nerves, and nothing changing in our case, but I mean in the case, of the Us, but so you raise an interesting question here again, broadening, this issue of the splits, among creators, and their divergent interests, we take this. 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:21.000 into the open access field, which is you know, a Topic of of of of more recent Interests. 00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:44.000 This is sort of the the real, the big third rail issue that often doesn't come up because the moral argument for open access is really nothing other than for those authors who have been paid already in another form for your work especially if you've been paid by taxpayers which is the case for almost all 00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:56.000 Scientific, and certainly all academic researchers. There's no particular reason why you should be paid again, for selling the product of what You've already been paid to do in the first place. 00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:01.000 So, the the division now becomes not between primary and and derivative authors. 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:19.000 It becomes between academic authors, on the one hand, for whom open access is to me, it seems to me a moral imperative and all the the freelance or whatever we want to call independent authors, who actually have an ambition whether realized or not to live, from their work, for whom as far as I could see, there is 00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:25.000 No good moral argument to be made, that they should open up their work, nor any economic logic as to how they should be able to do it, other obviously of course, public interest arguments. 00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:46.000 You know networking arguments and usefulness to the audience, and all that sort of thing I mean, obviously it'd be great if every novelist made their Novels freely available but I just Don't see the moral argument there, Society might be better if that were the case, but I 00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:53.000 Don't see how one could go to people who expect to live from their work, or want to try to live from their work, and tell them they have to open it. 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:58.000 So the new divide that's opened up is between Academia on the one hand, and intended cultural producers on the other. 00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:02.000 And the Odd thing is and I talk about this in in my new book. 00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:17.000 At some length, academia is not at all particularly in favor of open access, or the not nearly as in favor of it, as it ought to be and when I say academia I mean in particular humanities since I. 00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:26.000 Should sciences here, because scientists that's a whole different kind of efficient science is you know well on the way to becoming fully open access and in another 10 years Max. 00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:29.000 It will be, and there's no particular secret as to why, that's the case they have the funding to do so. 00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:52.000 It costs, you know, 2% of research costs to make articles and whatever books that scientists write open access is just it's a rounding hour for them in terms of funding but for the Humanities, and Services, of course it's, a major issue and those scholars are not the ones, who 00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:55.000 Are leading the fight for open access, as they ought to be. 00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:10.000 If anything, they're in the, in the aria guard, and you know, bringing up the rear rumbling all the way as they're so dragged into the open, access future, and it's A very interesting, sort of dispute to See a Group, of people, my Peers and Colleagues, who 00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:15.000 Want to be on the right side of things, but who aren't 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:43.000 I think that's exactly right. the the Humanities Scholars, and the Social Science scholars, I think more humanities, than social Science, at least in my experience there are people, in some of the social science, Fields, who who embrace open, access one Problem, has been that the 00:35:43.000 --> 00:36:05.000 scholarly societies have supported themselves through exclusive rights that they get from authors who publish in their journals, and since those journals very often are the high prestige journals where I have to place, my my work in this particular Journal, in order to be able 00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:11.000 to be sure, to get tenure and the you know the scholarly society. 00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:28.000 Says you got to give me your copyright and they have to you know pay the salaries of the staff, through that so it's that's another One of the Impediments, so I don't think this the elisa some of the social science Scholars, are fighting open access so much as 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:51.000 They are like we're trapped, right, we, we we're Trapped because of the the need to be in these journals, and as long as those journals are basically proprietary, We feel Trapped, so it's, been especially difficult for those people, to to find their way, to open Access 00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:52.000 but even so I think that there are now efforts in some of those fields. 00:36:52.000 --> 00:37:03.000 Anyway, to to open up a little bit more. Now, one thing that's we haven't sort of mentioned, but I think is worth mentioning. 00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:29.000 Is that open access has actually provided some competition in the copyright space that didn't exist before and it's provided an opportunity for especially scholarly authors who published their monographs they're now able to negotiate often with their publishers that hey we're gonna 00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:52.000 Have a 5 year window, in which the the book is basically available for for purchase only, but after that, because usually the the the that 5 years 3 to 5 years is kind of the the Window, in which generally speaking people are able to kind of essentially enjoy the fruits of copyright but after that we can make 00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:55.000 It available on an open access basis. And so that's been something. 00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:03.000 I think that you know has been a leveraged for for authors, that they didn't used to have. 00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:24.000 And I think that's been a good thing. Now one thing that I wanted to highlight here and this is a you know the latest skirmish, in the copyright wars and and that's the the fight over control digital landing so as many of you know the publishers 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:50.000 Of Popular Books, want to make their books, available digitally, only through licensing and only in a highly restricted Formats and so it seems to me that one of the things that the libraries have been able to do is not be able to like purchase, these ebooks and lend them the way. 00:38:50.000 --> 00:39:12.000 That the that that books have been lent traditionally by by libraries, but they've been experimenting with control, digital lending and the Internet archive was the was the sort of the instigator, of this particular initiative, which has been picked up by many libraries and endorsed 00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:36.000 By, a number of scholars, as well as other people, and that allows if you own a physical copy of a book, then you can scan that book and lend the digital copy and you have to do it you know you can't you can't digitally lend more copies, than you actually own 00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:58.000 And when somebody does a digital wind, it only lasts for 2 weeks, and and also with technical protected, so that you can't make further copies of it and this is kind of an effort to essentially accomplish lending by Libraries the way that they've traditionally, been able to 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:17.000 Do, but Hashtag and several other publishers have sued the Internet Archive over this and the cases now pending and a court in New York City. And this would be the big fair youth battle of the of the Decade 00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:22.000 Yes, no we all awake the outcome on tender hooks. 00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:28.000 To see what because it will make a huge difference in terms what the strategy will be going. 00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:33.000 Forward yeah, if if there's a loss here that would be quite significant. 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:52.000 Even more outrageous. When it if we look at digital Editions and libraries, is the way in which Publishers, Force Libraries to pay more for the digital Editions, that they Lend then then the the Retail, Consumer and of Course the Library's Argument is Well you know Library Owned, Physical 00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:53.000 Copy of a book, and after it's been led to X number of times. 00:40:53.000 --> 00:41:01.000 They it gets tattered and left, by a new one, and so they build into these library licensing arrangements. 00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:06.000 You can lend it excellent number of times, and then you have to pay again, or if you want a permanent copy that you don't have to renew all the time. 00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:22.000 You have to pay. You know, often 3 and 4 times, the retail price of it, but of course, there's a lot of dispute as to how long does a physical book, actually last in a library's hands and you know the publishers, will tell you you know 12 lens, and it's, gone, and 00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:28.000 the library is will tell you 112 lens, and still there, and so I'm obviously, There's a lot of Back and Forth. 00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:32.000 There, but it's almost as though the logic of the publishers is, you know. They want to be paid. 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:45.000 Per lent, not per book, and so you know if the Car manufacturers were to sell their cars, according to the same logic, if you sell a car, to a you know a a family, with 4 Children it's going to cost more than if you sell it to a bachelor. 00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:46.000 Which makes very little sense in the modern capitalist market, 00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:58.000 So I there's there's some other dispute there that has to be ironed out and and really far from having achieved any resolution 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:23.000 Well, and unfortunately the even though there have been some states that have passed laws that are kind of consumer protection laws that that try to regulate the way in which digital Ebooks are are licensed publishers, go after that and say, oh, that's preampted by copyright, law we 00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:33.000 Have this exclusive, right, so Authors alliance is hoping to work with other organizations, to try to figure out what consumer protection. 00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:36.000 Rules, we can promote that would not get preempted. 00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:48.000 Because it seems to me that the idea that you know libraries of the Future, are all digital right. 00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:54.000 I mean, for a lot of my students. If it didn't in digital form, it might as well, not exist. 00:42:54.000 --> 00:43:03.000 And you know the future of library is just really, it's stake in cases like the hashet lawsuit, against the Internet Archive. 00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:11.000 And I think that you know Internet archives, lawyers, are doing a very good job trying to help the court, see, the bigger, picture, here, 00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:33.000 But Again, Office, alliance, represents the Interest of authors, who basically, say, hey, we like libraries libraries, are really important to us, and access to the cultural, heritage of humanity is something that libraries. 00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:52.000 Enable and we need that to continue to we need that to continue to exist so hopefully the courts will will see that this isn't about theft, this is a about piracy this is about access to cultural heritage. 00:43:52.000 --> 00:44:16.000 Which you know the Constitution in the United States, basically says, this is supposed to be about 2 promoting the progress of science and useful arts as to say about promoting access to Knowledge and the Supreme Court, at least so far has basically said that the Interests of the public in access to works is the 00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:27.000 Primary goal of Copyright, not the reward to authors, and not to have exclusive control over everything. 00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:30.000 W that you raise the the elephant in the room question. 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:51.000 As far as libraries is concerned, because once everything is digitized, you know what what role exactly, are they going you think about when I was a teenager and desperately wanted access to more, music more more than I could afford I once lived for a while in a jurisdiction. 00:44:51.000 --> 00:44:55.000 Where it was considered okay for libraries to lend music. 00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:56.000 You could go and lend records that's not the case. 00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:17.000 Everywhere they were of course Old and Scratchy, and a little bit better than nothing, but not by much, but that was the technology of the day, that sort of determined that, but in most Places of Course you can't do that but now fast forward you know 40, years, and between between you know Apple music and Spotify 00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:34.000 Effectively whatever role libraries might have played in the dissemination of music has been completely sidestepped and they played Opsie 0 Role, and the Private Sector has arranged that Old very Nicely and apparently to the Satisfaction of the Average Consumer and the question is is something similar Going. 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:42.000 To happen to books where we just you know side step the libraries altogether. 00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:43.000 Well, I think libraries have have a big role to play in the future. 00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:45.000 At least, I'm I'm a big believer in that. 00:45:45.000 --> 00:46:06.000 It seems to me that there are I'm not the only one who actually really likes physical books, and likes to be in a place where you can actually look at the stacks and see what other books are next to this one and that's a little harder to do. 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:20.000 In in digital form. You'll more or less have to know what you're looking for and this kind of serendipity of the of the actual Physical Library. 00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:32.000 I think is a is an important function, that it's played, but also as a community center, right at least when I was growing up, there would be readings. Right. 00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:38.000 There would be sort of events where the libraries could be a community, space. 00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:45.000 And I think that space is still quite valuable. And again for authors. 00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:55.000 It was a way, of enabling, a writer readership for their work, and that that function, I think, would continue to exist. 00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:00.000 But again, you know a lot of what the publishers would like. Is. 00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:23.000 You have to subscribe to my silo. Right. These are my books and you license not just the book that you want, but you license all of the books in my in my Stack, and then when you get kind of used to that I'll take out, the ones, that are the most popular so 00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:44.000 You're still paying for the silo, but I'm taking out the ones that are popular, and you're gonna have to License, those differently and Wiley tried to do that this this, year by by Taking out some of the books that were licensed to Universities and We're Right before 00:47:44.000 --> 00:48:06.000 The start of the semester, you know, I was assigning this particular book, but now, my students have to buy it separately, rather than having it within the License Silo and I'm proud of Authors alliance, for having worked with Others To try to Say Hey, That's really Unfair 00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:09.000 And to do it right before the start of the semester. 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:15.000 When people have already planned their curriculum. So Wiley basically backed off. 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:26.000 But that's an example of even when you license something, you know, they can basically change the terms and change what the product is just like that. 00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:27.000 And you have no recourse 00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:30.000 Yeah, I I realize i'm not gonna make any friends. 00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:37.000 By saying critical things, about libraries in this crowd, and I far be it for me I've spent most of my adult life in libraries. 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:53.000 And rely on them heavily. I have nothing bad to say about libraries. I do. Think we have to think about what the future of Libraries is, and and there's some hard truths there that they are going to be very different than what they are staying 00:48:53.000 --> 00:49:03.000 Here, Pam, thank you. So much. This has been a such a great conversation I wanted to break in we have a lot of questions from folks in the Chat. 00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:19.000 I don't think we'll be able to get to all of them but we have a few themes kind of running in here, and I thought it would be good to to touch on a few of these so so one of the questions that's come in several questions that have come in are around the Treatment. 00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:44.000 Of artificial Intelligence, and both the Production of New works Via Artificial Intelligence but also, how the European and American approaches to treating copyrighted works effectively, as the Inputs as the Data for you know, Training, AI or performing text and data analysis how that has differed and where you see 00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:45.000 the future going with those 2 approaches? Are they diverging? 00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:53.000 Are they coming closer together? And I think one of the sub questions there is, how does that relate to at least on the American side of things? 00:49:53.000 --> 00:50:06.000 The Constitutional Imperative, that We're, We're supposed to have a System that promotes the progress of science 00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:13.000 Nice, okay, I'm gonna kick. This to you, panel, because this is above my pay grades. 00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:36.000 Well, I actually wrote a paper in 1,985 about a allocating copyright, in computer-generated works, and so this is kind of an old problem too and there was actually, quite a quite a lot written about it but at the time in the 1980, S when there were all these people, thinking about 00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:44.000 It it was a toy problem, and what I mean by toy problem, is that there was nothing commercially significant that was happening. Right. It was all. 00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:48.000 Like Oh, this can happen in the future. what are we going to do? 00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:53.000 And so I I wrote, I wrote this paper and fortunately. 00:50:53.000 --> 00:51:00.000 It's got rediscovered by the dozens of people who've been writing about this subject lately. 00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:25.000 Now the office of the kind, of the Patent and trademark Office, and the Copyright office in the United States have both come out, saying artificially, intelligence works are not Protected by by Copyright at all and and so you know it takes a human author actually to to be 00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:43.000 Eligible now one of the things that's going to be hard for the copyright Office, is that by just looking at Let's say a picture you can't tell whether it was created by artificial Intelligence or by human you just can't tell and so you know that's. 00:51:43.000 --> 00:52:05.000 Gonna be you know, a difficulty for the for the copyright office, also you know the closest cases that are out there, kind of you know, there were actually several cases in which you know genius or some spirit was said to be the the author and the copyright Office, said no no you 00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:10.000 Can't You know you can't. You can't register the work as Authored by Jesus. 00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:24.000 It doesn't work for us. so, but the the course of actually found that you know, by editing or by translating the sort of a human person was eligible. 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:50.000 And so based on those cases, I think that the tweaking that somebody might do with an artificial intelligence Work of some Kind Editing it or you know rearranging it in some way, that will probably be enough human authorship, to to allow copied to exist and I know from some studies that have been done in 00:52:50.000 --> 00:53:05.000 The, EU, that's kind of the approach that they're taking, also but I think, the more challenging question really is, what about ingesting copies of works. 00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:26.000 You know, if you kind of create a a database of the works of Picasso, and then you generate some new work that looks like a picasso, but wasn't created by but that that Entity what do you do about that now that's a place, where 00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:37.000 There's a very, very stark divergence of of opinion, but based on cases like the Google books decision. 00:53:37.000 --> 00:54:06.000 There's a pretty good argument that that in that making copies of Existing copyrighted works, and using them as data and not expecting their expression, is actually fair use and so so far the case law in the United States really is favorable to that now there are certainly people who are who are fighting about whether that 00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:31.000 Should be fair use, or not, and I know that there's one this one software program that has been developed that ingests, the the work of a Certain Artists, and then for some of the works, that they that the artists created that were Unfinished, the program, basically based on what 00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:50.000 The the Creator did in the past here's, what the final version of the work might look like and some of the some of the authors or the the the Estates of authors are Claiming, the that's Copyright Infringement to Make the sort of the Completed Work and I Think 00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:57.000 That's a you know, that's lots of open questions out there, so thanks to the audience, for Raising. 00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:05.000 Another, yet another place, where the copyright wars break out 00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:11.000 So Peter, you had talked a bit about kind of this emerging issue, or not emerging. 00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:21.000 It's been around for a long time. But how how do we deal with this idea of open access and there being you know a really strong contingent of authors who are interested in this and Pam. 00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:38.000 You mentioned that the Google Book's case, I remember one remember these little quotes that stick out and in one of the books, from the authors, Guild they asserted that open access was inimical to their Interests, and they even italicized, the inimical, Part to 00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:57.000 Emphasize how opposed they were to this idea that that their works would be distributed for free, and clearly there's there's distinctions within authors and Peter you started talking about that the the different types of authors but could you maybe Talk, a little Bit more, about 00:55:57.000 --> 00:56:07.000 how That's working out in Europe, right now, and some of the the Missing Pieces, or why aren't We seeing some of that in the United States 00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:11.000 Well, I I don't know the word that we're not I mean there's. 00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:27.000 The Europeans are have taken a few initiatives that we haven't followed up on most of which has to do with the fact that they have more centralized governmental systems, that allow them more leverage so for example, in England the reef whatever they call it the research assessment, exercise they keep on giving a 00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:44.000 New name, every few years second over, keep up with it, but because all the research funding comes through a central instance, they can actually force academics to make their works of an access or they shut off this picket, and you know it's been only articles up until now I think the next one or at 00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:48.000 least They're certainly threatening to make the next one also in include books. 00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:53.000 And so you know, British academics are really faced with the demo, that there's no choice. 00:56:53.000 --> 00:57:13.000 If they want to be, have their work. Recognized for promotion and tenure, and advancement, and all you know that those sorts of Issues It's got to be of an Access and so they you know they they they have them, you know they have them, in a buy and as it were and and we and the us, simply can't do that 00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:15.000 In the same way, with the any h and a certain surface. 00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:16.000 Can they can make mandates, but that's only a small part of the overall funding budget. 00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:39.000 And so each individual university tries to make its academics voluntarily post their stuff. And you, know that sort of thing really it's gonna be harder for us to to to to turn the tanker as that it than in Europe 00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:40.000 Thank you, so one one last question, I think we have time for one more, and this is going back a little in history. 00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:59.000 But what? A question came in about how and why did the Us come to flipped from a essentially opt-in to a opt-out system? 00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:00.000 You know following, the 1976 Copyright Act. 00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:22.000 It seems like a very European Approach and at least from the perspective of Libraries and Archives and cultural heritage, institutions it's been really devastating in terms of trying to sort, out you know what Materials in the Public Domain, and and whether They're able to Share that 00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:26.000 Well, I think a good part of the explanation is that as Us. 00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:39.000 Copyright industries got bigger and bigger and more on global the the Copyright Industry Groups, were 00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:44.000 Talking about? Why should we have much less protection in the United States than we have in Europe? 00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:59.000 Right so our markets are so. If if the copyright at the time was under the Burn Convention was Life of the author plus 50 years in the Us. 00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:18.000 It was like 28 years renewable for another, 28 years, and you know there's there's a reason why, you know, if if if they're giving Longer Protection, why shouldn't we why shouldn't the us also do so I think that was one of the That's One of the Major 00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:40.000 Explanations, but the Us. Didn't really move out of the kind of opt-in as Opposed to opt-out regime, until 1,900, and 89, because until the Passage of the the Implementation, Legislation, for the Burrne Convention, which the Us 00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:53.000 Joined in 1,900, and 89. If you didn't put a copyright notice on published Copies of a Work, then everyone could assume that it was in the public Domain and available for for free. 00:59:53.000 --> 01:00:14.000 Copying. Now I think that you know the United States had to do that if they wanted to join the burn, convention, and there was a reason why they wanted to be part of the Burn convention, because that's that was where the International Conversation about Copyright was happening and the Us. Didn't have a Seat at the 01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:39.000 table, because it wasn't a member of the Burn Union, but the Burn Convention Required Life of the Author Years and Required no formalities, as a condition of a Copyright, which and so the United States basically changed, to the more European Role in Order to Comply with the Burn Convention and then We Had 01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:46.000 a seat at the table. 01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:54.000 We are very close to time. Peter, I don't know if you have any last parting words. that you'd like to add 01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:59.000 Only that I suspect the will continue it. Whatever rep. Personal. 01:00:59.000 --> 01:01:05.000 There has been as Pamela has pointed out it's not a z there's a unanimity, and in this particular case. 01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:13.000 It seems to me we're on the right side of history, and I hope we prevail 01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:14.000 I hope so, too. That's a great way to end. 01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:15.000 I will hand it back over to Chris. Are you ready? 01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:16.000 Dave, is the Executive Director of Authors, Alliance and He's gonna set the stage for Today's Discussion and also introduce our speakers so over to you, David 01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:17.000 I I am thanks thanks, David, thanks everyone for this conversation. 01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:18.000 So I can sense that our audience still has some questions and given that there are 216 of you, still past the top of the hour. So here's what I'd like to do I didn't buy any of you who are able to stick around once we stop the Recording to for a little bit more of a chat session, 01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:19.000 With with with Pamela, and with with Peter and with Dave, so one thing I would like to say, is that please be sure To Download the Book Or Purchase it and print Copyright Wars. 01:01:19.000 --> 01:01:20.000 Is a a fascinating read. It is really dense it was hard to to make it through. 01:01:20.000 --> 01:01:21.000 I'll be honest, as I as a lay person or just a librarian. 01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:22.000 But here's a great thing. If you own the book, if you have the physical book, you can pass it on to someone that you think should read it afterwards, I mean that's one of the things I like most about owning books, is that you can give them to others. 01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:23.000 So as we wind down here today. I I do want to tell you about a couple of other upcoming events that you're gonna wanna check out. 01:01:23.000 --> 01:01:24.000 So I I know we're as we're drawing down to the end of the the end of the year. 01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:25.000 You might not be thinking about next year, but I do want to put some save the dates in front of you. 01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:26.000 So we might be asking the question well, why is the Internet so broken and what could ever possibly fix it? 01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:27.000 We'll be diving into that question on January the twelfth, when we host an in-person event at our Main library in San Francisco with Ben Turn, off the Author of the new Book Internet, for the people, then We'll be in Conversation with Leila 01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:28.000 Bailey, the Internet, Archives Policy Council, and you certainly won't wanna miss that I'm gonna Paste, a Bunch of Links here for these events, into the Chat, so and then after this booked on the Twelfth later in January we have 2 Ways, of 01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:29.000 Celebrating the public domain, we love the public domain on January the nineteenth, We'll be celebrating the works, the Publish Works, from 1,927 that are moving into the public domain, this year or in 2,000, and 23 with a Virtual party, and 01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:30.000 Then on, the next day on January the twentieth come to our in-person again, at 300, Funston in San Francisco, come to our Film Remix Contest Screening at the Internet Archive and so As part of our Celebration, We're Sponsoring 01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:31.000 A Film, Remix Contest, to create short films. You resources from the Internet Archives Collections from 1,900, and 27. 01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:32.000 Again, that are entering the public domain, so you can learn more about those through the links that we've shared out in chat. 01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:33.000 So to close down here today. And before we kick off the after party. 01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:34.000 I'd like to give some some commitments, and some thank you. 01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:35.000 So as we've mentioned several times, throughout the throughout the conversation, the recording from today's session will be archived on archive.org later tonight, and along with the Links that we've Shared, the Excellent Chat Commentary and Everyone Who has Registered will receive an email with a 01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:36.000 link to that recording and those resources. As for thank yous. 01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:37.000 Big thank you, to our speakers to Peter, so Pamela, for joining us today. 01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:38.000 Just a fascinating conversation. Thanks also to Dave, Hansen and Authors, Alliance for Co-hosting, our Session and to you our audience for your time and your Enthusiasm Today I'd like to Just take a final note this is our last Virtual. 01:01:38.000 --> 01:01:39.000 Event for 2,022, and through the 28 online events that we've produced. 01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:40.000 This, year we've brought more than 6,000 people together, virtually to hear about Issues in the Library and Information Policy world. 01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:41.000 Now we could not do this, and put on these talks without the hard work of the Team, Working, behind the scenes, who you haven't seen today or through those 28 other, sessions, and every one of these Conversations and So a very big thank you to Caitlin, and Duncan. 01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:42.000 Who make all of this just run so smoothly, now again, as we're as we close down here I do hope that you can join us at next year at one of our book talks or at public domain. 01:01:42.000 --> 01:02:12.000 Day, or another one of our events. Thank you all have a great day and a safe and healthy holiday season.